Our liberal friend Dump educated me with a thoughtful response to this original post. This is kind of a long post, but well worth the time. I wish to thank Dump for taking the time to answer the questionnaire I found on the internet.
My dear readers - please tell me where this internet questionnaire (IQ) I found on the internet is wrong. Can a Muslim be a Good American? - HD
1. IQ: Theologically - no. A Muslim allegiance is to Allah, the moon God of Arabia.
Dump: We’ve been over this before, at least twice, on this very blog: see 28 June 2005 and 5 September 2007. The simple fact is that the Arabic word allah means “God.” Just like the French word dieu, the Spanish word dios, the German word Gott, etc, etc. Like it or not, Muslims worship the same God that Jews and Christians worship.
HD: Fantastic! Thank you, sir.
Dump 1, Internet Questionnaire 0
2. IQ: Religiously – no. No other religion is accepted by Allah except Islam. (Koran 2:256)]
Dump: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejects false deities and believes in God has grasped a firm handhold which will never break. God is the Hearer, the Knower. Sorry, but it’s quite a stretch to read this verse and think it means “No other religion is accepted by Allah except Islam.” Here are some questions to ask yourself about this claim, if you think that’s what it does mean: What, exactly, does it mean if God does not “accept” other religions? Does it mean all non-Muslims are doomed to the fires of hell? Does it mean they’re infidels who need to die today? Does it mean they ought to convert? Does it mean God just ignores them?
HD: Let me add a personal note as it explains my belief. My Catholic grandmother came over on the boat thru New York legally with her husband. When he died in a car accident, the lone driver in the family was gone. The only church within walking distance was a Baptist Church. That is where the family went to church every Sunday. The older children knew it was not Catholic, but you did not argue with my grandmother. You went to church every Sunday. Hence, some of my family went Protestant and some stayed Catholic. My grandmother only understood she was in God’s house.
Dump 2, Internet Questionnaire 0
3. IQ: Scripturally – no. A Muslim’s allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Koran.
Dump: The so-called five pillars of Islam (”faith, prayer, concern for the needy, self-purification, and the pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able”) do not strike me as particularly anti-American. Am I missing something here? The biggest question of all: What the hell do “scriptural” questions have to do with one’s ability to be a “good American”?
HD: As long as the ‘faith and ‘self-purification’ does not include killing non-believers, I’ll buy it.
Dump 3, Internet Questionnaire 0
4. IQ: Geographically – no. A Muslim’s allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.
Dump: Meaning what? All billion or so of the world’s Muslims are secretly loyal only to Saudi Arabia? This is just silly.
HD: Geography means something. Allah is not in Mecca. Americans pray to God in the heavens, not back to their country of origin. I disagree that it is silly. If the underlying tone is that Muslims move the Middle East culture to the West, it is far from silly.
Dump 3, Internet Questionnaire 1
5. IQ: Socially – no. Islam forbids a Muslim to make friends with Christians or Jews.
Dump: This, readers, is nothing but a fucking lie, plain and simple. I challenge Hank Dagny, who cut-n-pasted this onto his website, to present any evidence he can come up with in support of this nasty, ugly lie.
HD: I would respectfully suggest this is where Dump ran out of steam. He had great links and great rebuttals, but here he resorts to swearing and reversing of the burden of proof. I have already admitted ignorance and wanted proof one way or the other. Unless there is some proof to the contrary – assuming not because Dump would have found it – this huge one goes to IQ.
Dump 3, Internet Questionnaire 2
6. IQ: Spiritually – no. A Muslim must submit to the mullah (spiritual leader) who teaches the annihilation of Israel and the destruction of the Great Satan, the United States.
Dump: The anonymous author, and those who credulously re-post his ignorant foolishness, are completely out of their depth now, and it shows. Anyone who doesn’t even know the difference between a mullah and an imam has no claim to be taken seriously on the subject of Islam. To be sure, we’re talking about Hank Dagny, who famously wrote that “these [Iranians] are Shi’ite MUSLIMS, who are allies of al-Qaeda and sympathetic to Bin Laden and the Taliban,” so what do you expect? Notice also the lunatic implication that all Muslim “spiritual leaders” march in lockstep with their calls for “the annihilation of Israel and the destruction of… the United States.”
HD: I just posted the questionnaire looking for answers. Dump does not supply one. Again, the situation is that many Muslims in western countries are openly calling for the destruction of Israel and the United States. The ‘peaceful’ Muslims are suspiciously silent. Dump ranted again. Forfeit.
Dump 3, Internet Questionnaire 3
7. IQ: Domestically – no. A Muslim is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Koran 4:34).
Dump: “Men are the maintainers of [qawwaamuna ‘ala] women, with what God has made some of them to excel others and with what they spend out of their wealth. So the good women are obedient, guarding the unseen as God has guarded. And (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the beds and chastise them. So if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely God is ever Exalted, Great.”
HD: “Maintainers of ‘women’”? Even though I graduated from a liberal public school, I know ‘women” is plural for woman. “Admonish” and “chastise”? “So if they obey you, seek not a way against them.” Although as a certified male chauvinist I like it, I think the United States frowns on this behavior. Our women are treated like children in this country – all the perks and are responsible for almost nothing. The Muslim treatment of women will not fly in this country, and I am shocked a liberal would defend it. But with liberals - the end justifies the means. Diversify and break the nation into needy, whining and arguing ‘groups’ is the goal of Democrats. Dump, you are officially losing now.
Internet Questionnaire 4, Dump 3
8. IQ: Intellectually – no. Because a Muslim cannot accept the US Constitution since it is based on Judeo-Christian principles and Muslims believes the Bible is corrupt.
Dump: Even if we ignore the fallacy of petitio principii and accept the lie that the rest of this assertion rests upon (i.e. “the Constitution is based on Judeo-Christian principles”), the assertion still doesn’t make sense. It seems to strongly imply that belief in the Bible is a necessary prerequisite for “acceptance” of the Constitution. Once again, this is just silliness.
The question of “corruption” is something the anonymous author has misunderstood. Muslims believe that the Koran is the literal word of God — that is, God dictated the Koran to the prophet Muhammad, in Classical Arabic, and the text of the Koran is God’s own words, transcribed verbatim. On the other hand, the Bible does not, of course, purport to be the literal word of God, but was written by human beings, and thus its text could be subject to “corruption” as human hands alter the word of God. Most people know this.
HD: I doubt ‘most people know’ that. The belief is that both the Bible and the Koran are written by the hand of God. I believe that the original Constitution was written by the hand of God. For that perfect a document to be created, there is simply no other way. The Bible was where our founding fathers got their guiding principles. We are back to square one. Do Muslims who are in this country put the Constitution first? You didn’t answer it Dump, but I will call it a draw.
Internet Questionnaire 4, Dump 3, No Decision 1
9. IQ: Philosophically – no. Islam, Muhammad and the Koran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is a either dictatorial or autocratic. * end of questionaire
Dump: No evidence or proof, just a series of angry assertions.
HD: Gee, I was going to say the same thing about you Dump. No evidence or proof. But I have some. LOOK at the Muslim nations. What kind of governments do they have? The lack of a democratic republics within Muslim nations kind of breaks the tie of #8, and loses #9 outright. Second point, Muslims did not assimilate into European culture, but are changing it to the Muslim culture. And they are out-breeding Europeans 8 to 1! They are following that pattern here, with the help and assistance of the liberals in this country. We already know Europe is a liberal-socialist cesspool. Diversity will be Europe’s executioner. Ours too, if liberals get their way.
Dump, you lost fair and square, but I praise the effort and you knocked out three of the nine questions out of the park. Too bad this is not baseball as .333 is a pretty good average.
Final Score: Internet Questionnaire 6, Dump 3
Ok, the questionnaire was not perfect, but except for our original Constitution …and me, what is? If, and it is a big if, Muslims want to be Americans, changes must be made. Muslims in this country are showing very little desire to assimilate.
My opinion expressed her many times is – you cannot be a hyphenated American. You are an American or you are not. If you start out by saying “I am a XXXXXX-American”, you are no American at all.
Our country was built on our Constitution, and our Constitution proclaims individual rights. Group rights are not granted there, but individual people’s rights are.
Without our Constitution, we have no nation. So why are we allowing mosques to be built and people from Mexico into our nation - when their all their allegiance is either to a religion or to another country? If this is allowed, we will lose our nation. – Hank Dagny
15 comments ↓
>If the underlying tone is that Muslims move the Middle
>East culture to the West, it is far from silly.
“The underlying tone” is a meaningless phrase. You haven’t explained why prayer-facing-Mecca is supposed to preclude anyone from being a “good American.” I suspect that’s because you cannot.
>Unless there is some proof to the contrary – assuming
>not because Dump would have found it – this huge one
>goes to IQ.
So it’s up to me to prove that there’s some document somewhere SPECIFICALLY PERMITTING Muslims to be friends with non-Muslims? That’s foolish, and you know it. You’re not being honest. Why doesn’t that surprise me?
>Dump does not supply [an answer]…
Riiiight. You don’t even know what a mullah is, yet you expect me to “prove” that every Muslim doesn’t report to one, and that not all of them preach the destruction of Israel and the US. Uh-huh.
>Dump, you are officially losing now.
How so? Because the verse in question doesn’t say what you thought it said? Maybe you should quit stretching so hard and revisit the source text. No, never mind — easier to just pretend it says whatever you want it to say.
>I believe that the original Constitution was written by
>the hand of God.
Believe what you like, but that doesn’t have anything to do with your unproven statement that a Muslim “cannot accept the Constitution.”
>Muslims did not assimilate into European culture, but
>are changing it to the Muslim culture. And they are
>out-breeding Europeans 8 to 1! They are following that
>pattern here, with the help and assistance of the >liberals in this country
What is this monolithic “Muslim culture”? Do you even know what you mean by that? Do you have any idea at all what you’re talking about, or is it just some half-remembered Mark Steyn phrase you skimmed past on your way to the good stuff?
Final score: Dank Hagny zero.
Readers, after giving Dump the last word, I will let you decide who answered what.
On this topic Dump is correct. Hank has gone off the deep end when it comes to Islam.
First of all, it was not my questionnaire.
Second, I asked for rebuttal and proof.
Third, Dump crushed three of the nine answers given by the person who undoubtedly wrote the questionnaire.
I am a rational, logical person - looking at 9 questions with two different sets of answers.
Dump made sense on three.
Internet guy on six.
4Putt has answered none.
Scoreboard:
Dump and 4Putt = 3
In. Guy = 6
Hank Dagny = (3 + 6) = 9
I got them all correct. How am I off the deep end?
Instead of nine reasons Muslims can’t be true Americans, there are only six. That is seven too many as far as I am concerned.
Dump and 4Putt, can you point me to the “American Muslims against Terrorism, For Religious Freedom and Love of the United States” chapter in your town please?
I know Dump knows where the ACLU, DNC and the NAACP is.
So where is the AMTFRFLUS again?
I might be off the deep end because I saw people jumping off the top end on 9/11.
Maybe it is because I saw an American get his head severed by the sharp end.
Maybe it is because I saw the soldiers on the USS Cole get the short end, because they were not allowed to avenge their buddie’s deaths, who were killed in their sleep.
Maybe it is because I see the American Muslims taking the vow of silence end in the war on terror.
Maybe it is because I see the left taking the traitor’s end.
Just maybe.
Terrorists, not Muslims, are our enemies. Your willingness to blame all Muslims for the actions of a few terrorists is dangerous and regrettable, and it causes you to make grand, sweeping overstatements.
Dump, I am not an unreasonable man. I am a logical thinker. I am of Russian and Italian descent. Both of my native heritage nations have been enemies of the United States.
But I am an American - FIRST! The United States is my country.
What I am looking for is PROOF that the Muslims born in this country or nationalized are Americans FIRST!
You don’t have any.
I keep asking and you keep repeating that I am making generalizations. Not good enough.
4Putt, have your Muslim friends comment.
Any Muslim readers want to comment?
The silence speaks volumes to me.
I see the Muslims on TV when they think they have been stereo-typed. Don’t see the pro-USA Muslim rallies anywhere. NONE.
Americans of German, Italian and Japanese desent fought against the Nazis, Fascists and the Empire in WWII. They enlisted. They took the ‘point’ on assaults.
I see silence, except for complaints about the United States from the Muslim community.
It is A-typical liberal to say I am wrong and have not one shred of evidence to dis-prove what I am pointing out here.
>What I am looking for is PROOF that the Muslims born
>in this country or nationalized are Americans FIRST!
>You don’t have any.
OK, I see your point, but what kind of “proof” could there possibly be? What would you accept as “proof”?
>It is A-typical liberal to say I am wrong and have not
>one shred of evidence to dis-prove what I am
>pointing out here.
What would you accept as “evidence” that “American Muslims are Americans FIRST”? Do you want every Muslim in America to take a loyalty oath and then carry around a government affidavit as proof of their trustworthiness?
(Maybe we should just force Muslims to wear a crescent at all times? That way, they’d be easy to identify in a crowd, and everybody would know to watch out for them.)
I was thinking of them wearing a ‘Crescent HEART Star of David’. Just kidding of course - however I better specify that I was.
But a flag with that proudly displayed on a mosque would be a nice start.
I would accept a “CAIR” type organization denoucing Osama Bin Laden, all terrorism and the practice of teaching hate and prejudice to children”. Maybe a “Cousel to Eliminate Fascist Radical Islam” (CEFRI), with them taking donations from members and running pro-American ads. After all, they are Americans - or want to become one someday.
I would accept all mosques in the United States to have on the street front of the building to ha e a HUGE picture of Osama Bin Laden with the red circle with the line thru the center.
I would accept a Muslim sponsored “Islam-Jew - ‘Who needs pork anyway’ Dinner” - across the country. Jews return the favor next year.
I would accept United States Muslims to overwhelmingly agree that face-covering in public is not possible in this country since in US history this gives off the impression you don’t want to be recognized. So the Hillary-Chelsea Clinton, Laura Bush, Condi Rice, Nancy Pelosi babushka will have to suffice.
The founding of an American Muslim company or division in the Marines, that will kick terrorist butt in Afghanistan or Iraq.
How about some American Flags proudly displayed in Muslim neighborhoods.
Now that you saw my point Dump (and thanks for acknowledging that) what would you like to see?
You can argue about the internet questionnaire until the end of time. The bottome line is “real muslims” are commited to a world ruled by sharia law. That, in and of itself, is contrary and treasonus to the US constitution. To argue otherwise is simply ignorant of the facts.
Well, “Swamp Rabbit,” your say-so completely changes things. Why didn’t you enter the discussion earlier?
By God, if you say “the bottome [sic] line is ‘real muslims’ are commited to a world ruled by sharia law,” then that’s good enough for me.
If “Swamp Rabbit” says so, then it’s so.
H.D. — I would like to see American Muslims do themselves a favor and get more vocal in their denunciation of their own radical fringe. I think a little effort on their part might go a long way toward garnering some goodwill for themselves. The fact that we have to have this discussion at all shows some of the challenges American Muslims have to face right now.
But no American should have to prove his/her loyalty. In America, we judge people by their actions, not their beliefs. And we don’t attack people for their beliefs until we’ve made an effort, in good faith, to find out what their beliefs actually are.
American Muslims don’t face challenges. They do nothing and carry on just fine.
They - like the citizens in Iraq - are waiting to see who is victorious before they take sides.
That is exactly my point. They are fence sitters while our naiton is at war.
Iraqis - I can understand - as they see and hear our liberals and Democrats demanding surrender. Liberals are costing American soldiers lives the same as if they shot them themselves.
As far as finding out what American Muslims ACTUAL beliefs are, you seem to be as much in the dark as I am. I simply am putting my belief out there that the American Muslim’s silence and lack of a public pro-American stance, tells me they are either fence sitters or subversives - and we don’t need either one right now.
We have subversives out in the open, known as liberals and Democrats to deal with. We don’t need silent ones also.
Glad to have been of service dump.
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